Managing Shame To Live Your Best Life: Insights from Shame Expert Karen C.L. Anderson

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:00:02]: Alright. Welcome back, everyone, to living your best damn life. 1 fuck yeah, I did at a time. We're actually recording this on the day of my mom well, my mom's birthday. She would be 78 today, and it's always a bit of a tough day for me as I'm sure many of you out there can relate. So when my guest, Karen, hopped on my calendar to record today, I I was thrilled because it's so serendipitous because Karen's work is all about difficult mother, daughter, complex relationships, and also shame. And I could not think of a better person to have this conversation with today and also know that it's okay if I get a little emotional. Right? I miss my mom even though we had a really difficult relationship.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:00:59]: So, Karen, welcome. I I can't tell you how much it means to me that you're here today.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:01:05]: Well, I'm glad to be here. And as I said earlier, before we started recording, I had no idea

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:01:11]: that I know.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:01:11]: And so I can see how, like, yeah. Okay. That's pretty serendipitous.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:01:15]: Yeah. Yeah. I did decide today that going forward, I'm gonna block my calendar, on this day for at least the near future. Right? But, you know, you had asked, do you wanna reschedule? I'm like, no. Absolutely not. Like, again, this could not be more perfect. So I would like to hear in your words a little bit about the work that you do, and then we'll hop into the meat of our conversation.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:01:42]: So like many of us, right, who have had various life challenges and then we, you know, figure them out sort of, or we're on our way to figuring them out and we, you know, learn stuff that has been helpful to us. You know, I had and still have, my mom is still alive, a very challenging, complex relationship with her. And, and over the past 10, 15 years, it really it became my school, so to speak. This relationship became my, you know, my opportunity to grow, and it's taken me in places I never would have expected. I do I am a writer, and I wasn't really writing specifically about difficult mother daughter relationships in the beginning. But as I, you know, continued to sort of, technically, what I was actually writing about in the very beginning was body image and weight and and and the very obvious connection that came through my maternal lineage, the the messages that I got about what's okay, what's not okay in regards to food, my body, my weight, etcetera. And somewhere in the past, like, 10, 15 years, I learned about life coaching like many people did.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:03:02]: Many of us.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:03:05]: And, you know, I did some trainings and whatnot, and it was in the midst of a master coach training that I was doing that all my mother stuff really sort of came to a head. This was actually in 2014, so that was exactly 10 years ago. And the it was like going through the fire, you know? And what I learned at that time was so helpful and what we were supposed to do in order to sort of pass this program was we had to do a project. And the project that I ended up doing was writing a book. Interesting. Which was, I called that book The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:03:50]: Oh.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:03:51]: And that book really took off. Yeah. And, and, and even though it wasn't my intention as a life coach to coach on that subject, that's kind of what happened. And interestingly enough, I at that time in 2014, I was not speaking to my mother and I hadn't for several years. We were estranged. And I didn't know it at the time, but I reestablished contact with my mother around that time.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:04:25]: Oh, interesting.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:04:26]: Because I wanted to prove something to the instructor. Oh. Because I was like, no. Right? Like, if I if I'm, like, as good at this as I say I am, then I will, like

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:04:37]: Walk your talk.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:04:39]: I will walk, you know, and I still had a lot of learning to do.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:04:43]: I can imagine.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:04:45]: There, you know, at that time I wasn't fully aware of the role that trauma plays and the role that, you know, yes, mindset's important, but if our our bodies, our nervous systems are freaking out, like, all the mindset in the world's not going to

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:05:02]: Yeah. Touch that. Yeah. And I think it's actually dangerous when folks think that or they're told that mindset is everything. I I find it very harmful. I used to fall into that camp. Right? And then doing my own yeah. Doing my own research and, you know, going through my own healing process, I I was like, no.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:05:23]: That is actually very harmful. So I was sharing with you before we started recording that, you know well, actually, let me back up. It was in 2015 that 2 things happened in my life that really swept the rug out from under me. 1 was from my mom and it really set me on the healing journey, if you will, of healing from childhood shit. I mean and it's so relatable. Right? I I know I'm not alone, but that's when I became aware of your work, the the book Difficult Mother, Adult, Daughter. Right? I I have that Right.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:06:01]: That was Yeah. The Peaceful Daughter's Guide That turned turned into that book.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:06:06]: Yeah. Yeah. And I was telling you that I was like, I so badly want to be friends with Karen. I I want to know this person. Right? Because you were talking to my soul. You were talking to my experiences. I was 45 at the time, and I had felt so alone and come to find out, oh, I'm not I'm not alone at all. Right? Which is tragic, but it is what it is.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:06:30]: And And I was saying, like, I don't know how we connected on Facebook, but even after we did, it took like, I think you actually reached out to me and invited me to participate in a free course with you and other folks. And I was just I remember that that that being asked, being invited by you felt so good. And, you know, my thing is all about getting out of your way to do the things that you really, really, really want to do. And And this is an example from my life where I didn't do that. Right? And I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:07:08]: So, like, the perspective on

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:07:11]: Well, like, how shame plays a role in that and Yeah. Of of kind of preventing us. Because I know a a big body of your work right now, and you've even started the shame school.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:07:23]: Yeah. Yeah. What I was going to say is, like, I I will answer that question, but the so the exploration of difficult mother daughter relationships led me into understanding shame from a much different perspective and seeing shame. And I have a whole sort of theory about shame, which we can get into later, but that the problem isn't individual mothers and daughters per se. It is it is a cultural problem. And shame, which isn't ours to begin with, is what gets in the way of a healthy relationship with our mothers or in general. But to speak to that piece of, you know, you being like, yeah, I I don't know. I'm maybe putting words in your mouth here, but like, will she like me? Or maybe she doesn't like me.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:08:16]: Or Yeah. I mean, that is that is and it's funny because my I have heard my mother say many times over the course of my life, people don't like me. Or I'm surprised when I find out that people do like me.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:08:30]: Yes.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:08:32]: And I mean, I can't tell you how many times, you know, I walk around my life. I, you know, I live my life, you know, seeing a neighbor out the window or something and and it popping into my head of, like, oh, they don't like me. You know? Yeah.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:08:49]: For, like, no good, like, no good reason.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:08:52]: Yeah. And I think that, and this is sort of one of my, you know, sort of theories about shame, is that we are hardwired to care what other people think. And we're we live in a time now where people are like, you know, no regrets and Yeah. Yeah.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:09:13]: I don't care what

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:09:13]: people think and fuck them and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Right? And I agree. Like, that is like, it's empowering to be able to live that way to a certain extent. But the fact is that this hardwiring that we have, right, goes back to like cave days or, you know, whatever, when one wrong move or one weird person or something not okay with one person could get the whole group killed. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And it's like important to know where, like, where we fall. Right? Like what it's it's important to know what that person actually thinks.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:09:57]: And so the fear of that can become internalized when our mothers or caregivers or, you know, other people in our lives who are influential. Right? When they're when they're not aware of their own fears that they have. Mhmm. I'm I'm not saying I'm kinda like back That's

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:10:14]: okay. That's alright.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:10:15]: But, right? Like, it's like what's modeled for us added to this, you know, primitive wiring that we have, added to a lot of the cultural stuff that happens that, you know, also then informs what we think of as right or wrong, good or bad.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:10:32]: Yeah. And I'm sure with every generation, there's layers of stuff that's put on top of us. And I think that's what I'm taking away from what you're saying is, like, over time, from going back to the cave days, we've had so many generations of stuff layered and layered and layered. No wonder so many of us walk around with this, are they gonna like me? And just going back super quick to the story with my mom, you know, I grew up being told by my mom that I was not a very good kind person. And I finally, when I started in my, you know, 40 in my mid forties to kind of untangle that and rewire those pathways that told me that story was true, I believed it. Right? Yeah. And so, of course, I wouldn't reach out to someone I admired so much. Right? She's not gonna like me.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:11:22]: I'm not gonna be worth her time. Like, all of that. And, you know, I, overall, am a fairly confident person usually, and so I'm always taken aback when I run into that. And it just it it's humbling. Right? Yeah. Very humbling.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:11:39]: I know. I mean, as you mentioned, I I started this thing called shame school recently, and we're into the 2nd week of it. And and I was not I shouldn't say I was shocked. I wasn't shocked. But, you know, after the first call that I had with the group, like, in the in the very beginning, I I all of a sudden, I felt like I was in a freeze state. I felt like I was stumbling over my words. I'm like, oh, here it is. Like and and you've already said the the magic words.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:12:09]: Of course I felt that way. It makes all the sense in the world that that's my experience.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:12:14]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:12:15]: And that is the very that is the healing right there.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:12:19]: Giving yourself grace and compassion for a very normal human response.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:12:25]: Well yeah. And not only is it a human response, but it's what we, what we, we as humans have tended to do, especially if we're parents, and I'm not a parent, you are a mom, but we do it with our friends. We do it, we do it just in sort of in general and it's very well meaning, which is to not want others to feel bad.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:12:48]: Mhmm. Right. To make them feel uncomfortable.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:12:51]: Right. You you shouldn't feel that way. Right? You shouldn't be embarrassed. You should you should be confident. You shouldn't have thought that I would have been that. Like, and what that does is it adds another layer. It adds another layer of shame.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:13:04]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:13:06]: Because we're saying in a in a, like, in a well meaning way, you know, you shouldn't be embarrassed or you shouldn't feel that way because you're so amazing.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:13:16]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:13:17]: But my experience is that I'm actually not amazing and I'm not confident.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:13:21]: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:13:22]: And so and and the fact that I feel that way isn't actually a me problem. Right? It is the internalized stuff that we took in because of our culture.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:13:39]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:13:40]: Adding in the the physiological thing. And now we have this dynamic where because we're not acting confident or because we care what people think when we think we shouldn't care or whatever it is, we add this extra layer of, and that must mean there's something wrong with me because all those other people out there who are being confident and doing the things and whatever. And I'm still over here running a shame school, feeling shame.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:14:09]: Right. Right.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:14:10]: Right. And so the answer is, it makes sense that that's my experience. Right? It makes sense. And that is what then takes that extra layer off.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:14:21]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:14:24]: Yeah. Like, it makes sense that this is my experience, and the fact that I'm having this experience is doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. It's normal to be having this experience.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:14:35]: Right. It's when we make it mean that there must be something wrong with us, that's the insidious harmful part. And Yeah. Untangling that is a lot of work. You know? I'm I'm not gonna project my personal journey on anyone's, but I know for myself, that took years. You know? And it there's still, like, bits and pieces, and there will always be bits and pieces that I'm having to untangle, having to work with. I think I'm always going to carry a little bit of that story that I'm not a very good person. Right? And my my work now is, like, I'm aware of it.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:15:11]: What does that say?

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:15:12]: Well, go ahead.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:15:13]: No. My work now is catching when I say that to myself and, like, pivoting in the moment. And the more you do that, the easier and more second nature it becomes, but you have to be really intentional. So show me what you were gonna show me or show us what you were gonna show us.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:15:29]: So this is my box of shame. Oh. And as you said you said, I will always carry that. Right?

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:15:35]: Yes.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:15:36]: And I think I think that that's another thing that we think is going to happen is that so inside my box of shame are what I consider my sort of 3 core shame based identities, and I have them written on little pieces of paper.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:15:52]: My gosh.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:15:53]: And one of them says I'm bad. One of them says I'm a selfish spoiled brat. Oh, Karen. And the other one says I'm a pathetic loser. Now there are other flavors. I'm stupid is another one. Yeah. I'm being ridiculous.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:16:10]: Right? That's another one.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:16:11]: Oh, yeah. I did get that one too.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:16:13]: Yeah. Yeah. But the thing that, you know, before when we were talking about, like, coaching and mindset work, right, you know, the model that I was taught was, you know, you you you sort of figure out what your thoughts are and what emotions are the result of thinking the thoughts that you think. And then, you know, how do you show up? Because it's basically CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. It's, you know, it's nothing

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:16:37]: With a couple couple of little extra steps layered on, so we think it's something new. Yep.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:16:42]: Yeah. But the thing that I kept wanting was that these thoughts should go away. Like, if I'm doing my work and if I'm a life coach and I'm a master certified life coach, then I shouldn't be having these thoughts.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:16:58]: Which is another layer of shame on top of a already growing shame sandwich.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:17:03]: Exactly.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:17:04]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:17:04]: And so the and, again, I like you, I don't wanna project my experience on other people. And there may be there may come a day where these never enter my mind again.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:17:17]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:17:18]: I'm not counting on that.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:17:19]: Right. Right. Right. Right.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:17:20]: And so I'm like, how can I now relate to it differently? And, you know, I'd also, you know, I'd go to a retreat or go to a workshop or something, and people people would say, oh, let's burn it. Like, let's burn these bad thoughts.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:17:33]: That's right. Or let's

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:17:34]: suck them down the toilet, or let's bury them, or have a ceremony, or or whatever, and, boop, there they are again, like, still there. Yep. So I was like, I'm not I'm not going to pretend Yeah. That these are going away or that I can somehow mindset my way out of them. What I'm going to do is I'm going to put them in a box. I'm going to keep it on my desk as a reminder that these exist in here, right, in here Yeah. And that and that's okay. And that what I can do instead of trying to rid myself of these thoughts, I can create what I call an intentional intentional identities that can sit alongside so that my brain has another option if but I have to direct my brain.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:18:25]: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Sometimes you don't catch it and you realize, oh, shit. I did it again. But it's like, okay.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:18:33]: Next time, I'll try to catch it.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:18:35]: But this you know, people are like, you keep that on your desk? I'm like, it's it's a relief.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:18:41]: It's such a big part of you.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:18:43]: It's a part of me, but it's also a relief that I don't have to get rid of it. Exactly. I don't have to banish it. Like, it's okay that it exists. And being, you know, there's a in my book that came out last year, I tell this story about and sort of like how this all came to be. And that, you know, several years ago, I was actually sitting right here at this desk with a mentor of mine, and she was asking me, she goes, do you think that your mother or grandmother ever felt like a pathetic loser? And I was like, no. Like, no. Like, that just would never cross my mind that they would ever feel that way.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:19:21]: Now that doesn't mean I didn't think they ever experienced shame, but not that flavor. And she challenged me to because I know quite a bit about my mother and grandmother's stories. It's just that's something that's interesting to me. And so I sat and I thought about it for a while, and I actually could come up with some experiences I know that they had where maybe those words weren't maybe it wasn't pathetic loser, but I that I'm pretty sure that that's how they felt.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:19:50]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:19:52]: And when I had that realization, I sat here and I actually slammed my hands down on the desk. And I was like, oh my god. It didn't start with me. Pathetic loser didn't start with me. Right. And that night, that night, I went to bed and I didn't feel well. And, you know, as the hours went on, I was like, oh shit, I'm gonna I'm not gonna be sick.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:20:19]: Oh, no. That's the terrible feeling.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:20:23]: Yeah. So I'm, like, in the bathroom and, you know, I got sick. Yep. And, like, laying on the floor because I'm, like, I'm not sure what's gonna happen now. And I had this vision of women, like, a big sort of, like, mass of women, like, all sort of standing together. And one of them taking a box, like, sort of like, the first woman, like, taking the box out kind of, again, very sort of symbolic. Mhmm. And it's, like, wrapped.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:20:50]: Right? Like, say it has, like, orange paper and a blue bow. Right? And she hands it to the next woman. And that woman takes it, and then she tucks it in. And then it comes out again wrapped differently, like maybe now a green bow with purple paper. Mhmm. And she hands it to the next woman. But the thing is is, like, what's inside is the same shit. Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:21:10]: It just looks different on the outside.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:21:11]: I have full body goosebumps right now.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:21:15]: Full body. So I'm like, like, that's what it is. Right? It's like this stuff that actually doesn't belong to us, but that we internalize. Yeah. Yeah. And unless we're willing to actually take it out and look at it and say, you know what, this paper, this one says I'm a selfish, spoiled friend.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:21:34]: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:21:36]: And, and to not, and to not be hijacked by it. You know, to relate to it differently. Yeah. Than when it's in here unconscious and just running the show.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:21:49]: Exactly. Exactly. And So even that step alone is a is a relief. Right. Right. Well, it makes me think of all the mental energy we expend trying to fix things that maybe will never be fixed. Right? Yeah. And I used, you know, fixed.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:22:06]: Some people don't like the concept of feeling broken. My story is I did feel broken. I did fix myself, you know, whether that resonates with with folks listening in or not. But the think of the mental energy that we expend. And no wonder we're so exhausted for so many reasons. And this is just one more layer of exhaustion that we're putting on ourselves that we don't necessarily have to. There are other ways to approach it. What I wanted to say though is, a, thank you so much for sharing your individual shame thing.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:22:43]: Right? Like that no. It's you know, folks listening in are really gonna relate to that. And Yeah. And what I'll say number 2 is that and you're an expert in this. You have written books. You have given workshops. You have been invited on stages. You now have a shame school.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:23:02]: And in your shame school, you yourself experienced those things because that is what happens. And going back to the mental energy, trying to continually not, you know, push that away and not just sit with it and and build a healthy relationship with it is so harmful to ourselves. And I don't know that people realize that, which is why I'm so grateful for your body of work.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:23:30]: Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That pushing away, that resistance, which, you know, resistance in and of itself is not a bad thing. Right. Right? Sometimes resistance is good. It's the foot on the brake. Right?

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:23:41]: Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:23:41]: But, yeah, when we, you know, I I mean, I was convinced that if I didn't get rid of that, that I would be doomed for the rest of my life.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:23:51]: Yeah. Doomed. You wouldn't be able to live your best damn life.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:23:56]: Totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I remember, you know, I think it was in 2012 when Brene Brown Mhmm. I think it was her second, like, really big TED talk on vulnerability and shame. And, like, I'll never forget watching that and being like, oh my god. Shame. I have to get rid of my shame.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:24:11]: Yeah.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:24:12]: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how we've all evolved.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:24:16]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I love that,

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:24:20]: you know, I'm a woman in my fifties. You're a woman in your sixties at time of recording, and we have decades behind us of carrying this. Right? And we try our best not to let it stop us in doing the things that we really, really want to do and have for ourselves and give to the world. And sometimes it does, but it's that awareness of, like, I don't want this to stop me. How can I move through it? So I love the the shame box. I'm absolutely gonna start that. I encourage anyone listening in. Again, the story of all the women, I, it just got goosebumps again.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:25:00]: Like, that is powerful. That is such a powerful visual and so true. But I'm wondering, are there any other tidbits of wisdom you can give to the person listening in and is like, they are describing me, and I don't know what to do next. Or I don't know what what are my next steps with this?

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:25:24]: So I do have a little framework. I call it the 6 n's, and I would say probably anybody who's listening to this probably knows them already or, you know, and practices them on some level. But, you know, to bring sort of a formal framework to it, which I know is always helpful, the first n is to notice. Right? And we've we're you know, if you're listening, you're aware.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:25:46]: Yep. Yep.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:25:47]: You have something that's, like, in the way or, you know, right, like, you notice it's there and then we want to name it. And I have found that getting gritty, right, getting into the nub of it I love

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:26:04]: we're gritty.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:26:06]: Right? It's like it's I mean, to hear someone say, I'm I have the thought that I'm a pathetic loser. I I have seen people have a visceral reaction.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:26:15]: Absolutely. Oh,

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:26:16]: that's painful. Like, how can she think that? But, like, knowing that specific flavor and knowing it in that level of sort of grittiness of of, you know, or or simply I'm bad Mhmm. Is helpful because now we're like, that's what's running the show right now.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:26:35]: Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:26:36]: And and the more that, you know, I think the shame box I mean, this is also sort of like a way to make it lighter. It's like fun. Yeah. And to to remind ourselves. So so notice name it. This is my pathetic loser pattern that's running the show here. Right? Like, when I started Shane School and I was freezing and, you know, I I after you know, I I was I went I made it through, obviously.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:27:00]: Yeah. Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:27:01]: Yeah. You're here. Open up and throw me whole. But I right? Like, I had to, like, go through this, like, later in the day. I'm like, okay. Yep. That's what was going on.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:27:10]: Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:27:12]: The next one, and, again, we've already spoken to this, is to I use the word normalize or neutralize. Normalize, neutralize, they're 2 sort of different steps, but they're kinda similar. And that is simply to say, oh, it makes sense that this is my experience.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:27:29]: Mhmm. Right? I I Yeah. That is so powerful. Sorry. I cut you off, but that is so powerful to do that.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:27:36]: Yeah. Like and and it's not a me problem that my brain offers me this. Right? As a child, I internalize this message that's not mine. And it actually, technically, isn't my mother's or my grandmother's or on down the line. Right? This is a cultural, you know, women especially. Right? We have been from religions and institutions and patriarchy and all the, you know, all that. Right? That's why it's not ours. And so to be able to say, oh, but it makes sense that I'm having this experience, then takes that extra layer of shame off saying, what's wrong with you? You can't get rid of that.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:28:11]: Like, you know, it's still running the show. No. Oh, it makes sense. Right? So I'm normal. I'm unshaming

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:28:17]: it. Yeah. You're removing a layer.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:28:20]: If we go back

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:28:21]: to the sandwich metaphor, you're removing a layer of the shame sandwich.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:28:25]: Yep. And so the neutralize, so notice name, normalize, neutralize, right, is and again, not everybody's into this and I I don't like to force a, you know, a step on people. Some people for some people, it's helpful to be able to track emotions in the body. Like, okay. I've named it. I I know that this is my pathetic loser pattern, and when I'm experiencing it, I do tend to freeze. I feel like I'm shrinking inside. You know, I get kind of like a, like a buzz.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:29:02]: Yeah. Yeah. You know?

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:29:04]: Unify it. You're making it its own thing.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:29:09]: Yeah. Yeah. But to be able to to know very intimately that this is how my body responds when I'm in that Mhmm. Neutralize like, because then what I say is, oh, yes. It makes sense that this is my experience and these sensations and this physiological experience that I'm having is that that's all it is.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:29:31]: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:29:32]: Right? It doesn't mean anything. Right? I'm taking the meaning out of it. I'm neutralizing it. You know, I'm making it a neutral.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:29:40]: Yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:29:40]: Like, okay, my body's like it's like being hungry. My my stomach's growling. Doesn't mean, you know

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:29:45]: I'm tired. Does that make me a bad person? Absolutely not.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:29:49]: Exactly. So we're we're neutralizing it. And then then it's, okay, what do I need?

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:29:55]: Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:29:56]: That's the next n. And, you know, that stuff in and of itself can sometimes be challenging because we've been taught to, you know, not pay attention to our own needs. Right? So, you know, it's just whatever the first thing that comes up. Maybe I just need to go lay down. Maybe I need to scroll Facebook, or maybe I wanna play a game on my phone or Yeah. Yeah.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:30:21]: Whatever it is.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:30:22]: Or maybe maybe it's I need to cry or maybe I need to cry.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:30:26]: If you're watching the video, you have this very beautiful is it a black lab behind you?

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:30:32]: Yeah. She's yeah.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:30:33]: Oh my gosh. Like, I I have my noose and I just when I'm when I sometimes what I need is to just, you know, grab their poofy ears and face and just

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:30:45]: yeah. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't have to be some big prescriptive, like, oh, I'm gonna go meditate and Yeah. Do yoga. And I mean, if that's it, then we're gonna do that. But, like, you know, it's I mean, I think another piece that I don't wanna interrupt the I'll get to the last end. But in the field of trauma and healing, you know, we understand the concept of triggers. Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:31:09]: It's also the need step is also about understanding the concept of glimmers. Mhmm. Mhmm. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but, like more

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:31:18]: and more about glimmers. They make sense to me, but I haven't dove deep into it myself.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:31:24]: Yeah. It's like these are the things that I know, like, feel good. It's it's like a it's and again, in sort of, like, trauma and nervous system language, it's like being well resourced. Right? Like and the resources can be very, very simple. I mean, it can just simply be hand over hand over

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:31:41]: heart. Absolutely.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:31:43]: You know? And then the final n is next. What am I going to do next? And again, it doesn't have to be, no. I'm gonna be productive. Right. Right. Right. You know, it's just okay. I know what I need, and now I'm gonna take care of that.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:31:58]: Yeah. I you know, as you're talking, that's intuitively what I started doing those 9 years ago. I didn't have any names for it then, and I so love that you've actually put it into a framework. And I'm wondering, do you have a resource on your website or in your books that that talks about this? Because I'd love to share that in the show notes.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:32:21]: I I think I don't know if I have put it on my blog yet or not. I I have talked about it, in my newsletter for sure. Yeah. What I'll do is I'll send you a link Okay. To a piece that I wrote about it.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:32:34]: Sure. Yeah. That'd be great.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:32:36]: And I also have a podcast. I I'm not very I have not been very consistent with my podcast lately.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:32:43]: There's no shame in that. No.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:32:45]: There's no

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:32:46]: You made intentional decisions to not be as involved at this point in time.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:32:53]: But definitely there yes. I have, and I will make sure that you have a link to that so that you can share it.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:32:59]: Yeah. Because I think, you know, there's so many nuggets that we've talked about. It's even people who are experts in this field of study still experience it. Right? And very tactical, tangible, practical things you can do if you're experiencing it. And like like we said earlier, like, it might it won't feel great and comfortable and like, oh, I know what I'm doing when you first start to try to be aware to catch these things. But I at my own experience, all of a sudden one day, you're like, wait. I don't even have to think about it anymore. I just know when I need to pivot.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:33:41]: Right? And that and then that's like, the pride that goes through you. Right? I'm like, oh my god. I did it. I did it.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:33:51]: I know. I've had numerous experiences where it's like I catch myself right in the middle of it. Like, there was a I'm not gonna tell the whole story, but there was a Yeah. Instance with my husband where I was, like, ready to jump down his throat because what was getting pinged in me Mhmm. Is I'm stupid.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:34:06]: Yes.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:34:06]: He was he didn't think I was stupid, but I what he said came through that filter, and I was ready to, like, you know?

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:34:13]: That's what

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:34:14]: I know very well. And I was like, I was right there, and

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:34:17]: I was like, oh. We'll look back.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:34:20]: And it's not to say, right, that I mean, I think one of the most important distinctions that we can make here is that this isn't about never being angry or standing up for yourself or, you know, you know, wielding anger intentionally when we need to.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:34:38]: Yeah. Yeah. You know? And, again, it's like if if let's say you had gone after your husband in that moment, it's like, you know, afterwards, it's like, oh, I did that. I was feeling this way. Here's how I reacted. I I don't I don't love that I did that, but I'm also not gonna beat myself up because you understand that's a part of being an imperfect human being. That great you know, bring it back to that grace and compassion for yourself that you I'm sure you have for others if they were in that moment and did the same thing.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:35:10]: Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a great video, a TED Talk by a child psychologist whose name is Becky Kennedy. And I, you know, I don't have children, but I I love some of the stuff that gets put out

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:35:24]: for our parents

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:35:25]: these days because it's like, it helps me help, like, parent myself. For sure. But, like, what you were just saying, right, is that we we are humans and we're gonna fuck up. We're gonna say the wrong thing. We're gonna hurt people. We hurt people. We will always have that in us, the ability or the capacity to hurt others, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. But the thing that I love about Becky Kennett, this particular video, is she talks about the art of repair, of being able to make repairs with people, and in her case, specifically with children, right, as a mother.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:36:00]: And that is something that our mothers, I mean, maybe some people's mothers did. Mine didn't probably and I don't think want to. But learn how to make a repair because it's not that my mother made mistakes. Like, of course she would make mistakes, and that's fine. But it's the it was the bullying and the, and the shaming

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:36:23]: Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:36:24]: And the unwillingness to ever have any sort of self reflection.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:36:29]: Yes.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:36:30]: You know?

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:36:32]: Amen.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:36:33]: And so no repairs were made. Yeah.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:36:36]: Yeah. So we'll we'll include all those resources, all your information in the show notes. I again, if you're listening in and what Karen and I are talking about really hits you on that visceral level, I encourage you to explore these resources and at least get started. Right? If you're ready, I'm all about, you need to be in a good position, you know, to to really do the work of untangling this stuff, but it's also so worth it. With that, I have 2 final questions for you. One, what are you excited about when you look ahead to the coming months?

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:37:17]: Well, I'm really excited about something I'm doing next week and Okay. Speaking of glimmers. So I, a year or so ago, found out that I really enjoy listening to certain kinds of music when I walk on a boardwalk. I live in Connecticut, kinda near the water, and there's a boardwalk. And one day, when I was in a really sort of rotten headspace, I put my headphones on. I went down there to the boardwalk, and the song Fat Bottomed Girls,

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:37:45]: like Love that song. Love that song.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:37:47]: Came on, and something just shifted. And I started singing out loud, and I started, like, pumping my fist in the air and sort of, like, dropping down boardwalk, and people were, like, watching me.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:38:01]: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:38:03]: And there was something very intoxicating about being witnessed in my joy. Yes. And ever since then, this has become a practice. It's so my point of the glimmer is that I noticed that. Mhmm. I noticed, wow. This is fun. It reminded me of being in my twenties and going out to nightclubs and dancing with my friends like a fool.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:38:21]: Yeah. Just like, what is

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:38:24]: this? Yep.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:38:24]: And I have no desire to go to nightclubs. I'm like, I'm in bed by 8 o'clock these days. Right? But it's like I made the connection. So when Kamala Harris became the nominee, I was down there on the boardwalk and listening and I made the connection in my head to just how much joy she brings and values and Exudes. Represents and exudes. And I said, I am going to do a silent disco on the boardwalk event in support of Pamela Harris. And I set it for next for 28th. I I this was, like, a couple of months ago, whenever it was.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:39:09]: And so that's next week and I'm really, really excited. I hope, like, there'll be, like, 50 of us.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:39:14]: Oh my gosh. I wish I could fly out and join you. That sounds like so much fun. So if you're in the Connecticut area, is there anywhere people can go, like, specifically to get that event information?

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:39:26]: It's on I have a Facebook event. It's private though.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:39:30]: Oh, sure. Sure. That's fair. That's fair. But it yeah.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:39:34]: I can see some

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:39:35]: your social media about it and celebrate that you did did this. I love that so much. And the people who showed up, right, of just being in that joy together.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:39:44]: Magic America's grateful again.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:39:46]: Love it so much. My second question

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:39:49]: I would say I'll just say that I, you know, when I came up with the idea, I the other thing is that it's happening the day after National Brave Women's Day Oh. Which is September 27th, and that I plan to do this in the future, not as a political thing Yeah. But as a way to raise money for women's mental health. Love it.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:40:09]: Love it. Maybe 1 year, I can fly out and join you for

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:40:12]: a book.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:40:12]: That would be amazing. Final question. And you've already shared so much, but if we really, really, really knew you, Karen, what would we know? It can be funny, poignant, you know, whatever you want it to be. But what leave us with, what would we really know to be true about you?

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:40:35]: Like, basically, I'm 10 years old inside.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:40:39]: You and me both. I think that's why we get on so well when we do that.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:40:44]: I mean, like, you hear people say, like, oh, you know, if you could go back in time or, like, you know, what was your best age or whatever? And people will say, like, 25 or whatever. I'm like, no. 10. 10. I'm in I have a I have a total, like, raging inner goofball.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:41:01]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My daughter is 20. She's my youngest, and, you know, her her dad and I are very playful 50 mid fifties. I think we'll always be playful. That's just who we are.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:41:18]: She rolls her eyes so bad at our, you know, 12 year old sense of humor and the inappropriateness, and and I'm like, you'll get it someday, dear. You'll still get it. But, you know, she's now she rolls her eyes.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:41:33]: Yeah. She'll she'll value that.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:41:35]: She will. Absolutely. Absolutely. I cannot tell you, a, I do feel better after having this conversation. Again, going back to we're recording this on my mom's birthday and she passed about three and a half years ago, but I cannot thank you so much for your vulnerability, you know, talking about the work that you do and how to make it applicable to anyone listening in. Right? So again, we'll have all your information. I encourage folks to go check out Karen. This has been really wonderful.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:42:07]: Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:42:08]: glad that you have this platform and that you're putting yourself out into the world so unapologetically and beautifully and goofball ish in all of that.

Jen V. YOUR Best Damn Life! [00:42:19]: You know? Yeah. It's I've always been a goofball, but giving myself permission to do it on video and just be me, all of a sudden, like, it has unlocked a and just be me, all of a sudden, like, it has unlocked a brand new layers of me that I knew were in there, but I didn't know how to bring out. And it is so much fun. It is It is. I'm having the time of my life. So thank you so much. And thank you.

Karen C. L. Anderson [00:42:40]: Later. Okay. Bye. Bye.