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Lisa Kirkman, host of Big Gay Overalls podcast, smiling and wearing glasses against a teal background. Podcast episode title overlay reads 'Big Gay Overalls As A Metaphor for Life: Lisa Kirkman on Self-Acceptance & Living Authentically' with Your Best Damn Life podcast logo in corner

From Living Others’ Expectations to Living Authentically: Lisa Kirkman on Self-Acceptance, Coming Out Later in Life & Living Her Best Damn Life

In this episode, I chat with Lisa Kirkman, host of Big Gay Overalls podcast, about her journey from feeling like she was watching her life in third person to fully owning who she is.

Lisa shares her powerful story of breaking free from the “shoulds,” finding her voice, and creating a life that actually fits instead of forcing herself to fit into a life that wasn’t meant for her.

We dive deep into what it means to accept yourself, set boundaries without feeling like an asshole, and intentionally design a life you love.

Whether you identify as queer or not, this episode is for anyone who’s ever felt like they’re living someone else’s version of success.

On today’s episode all about self-acceptance so you can live YOUR best damn life, we discuss:

Use Lisa’s story as inspiration to get out of your own damn way and create YOUR Best Damn Life.

This conversation is your permission slip to start.

Lisa is amazing. Absolutely wonderful and delightful and allthethings. Her wife? HILARIOUS. Check out this vid on one of the best things about coming out later in life as lesbians. I could watch this on repeat and I may have a similar video of me somewhere out there…(not as a lesbian (I’m pan) but wieners are def. involved)

Lisa highly recommends Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less in pursuing the art of living YOUR best damn life.

Lisa’s social media game is STRONG! You can find her on TikTok, Insta, Threads, and you absolutely should subscribe to her Big Gay Overalls Podcast especially if you’re coming out later in life or just want to be inspired by her story and awesomeness.

They've known Lisa 1.0 for 46 and a half years. And now there's this other version of Lisa, and that can be hard for people to reconcile that, well, I'm still the same person. This is who I always was. I just never let you see it.
The art of self acceptance as I'm learning is it's not automatic. It's manual. It's a manual process that you have to keep having checks and balances in your brain all the time.
Don't wait for the light to appear at the end of the tunnel. Walk down there and light that damn thing yourself... no one is coming to save you.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Welcome to Your BEST Damn Life. The show you’re about to listen to is for anyone ready to see just how good life can get when you give yourself permission to grab possibility by the balls and become your own ride or die. I’m Jen Vertanen, your f bomb dropping strategic guide, you’ve been warned, for turning someday maybe into holy shit, I’m actually doing this. Whether you’re scared shitless or ready to raise some holy hell and break the rules, we’re exploring what it really takes to create your best damn life. Let’s do this. Welcome back to your best damn life, the fun, the fuckery, and everything in between. I am your host, Jen Vertanen, your unapologetically sweary if you didn’t pick up on that already, best damn life coach and consultant, and I work with folks wanting to make an even bigger difference in the world starting with their own lives, which often means breaking the cycles of whatever fuckery life has thrown your way. And let’s be honest, some of us have definitely been dealt more fuckery than others, but no one escapes life without some form of fuckery.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
So today, I am chatting with Lisa Kirkman about her journey of coming out later in life and really diving deep into doing the work to fully accept and love the hell out of herself. Even if you don’t identify as someone who’s coming out, who might ever come out, like, we can all use, we’re all on that self acceptance journey, and I I especially love Lisa’s story around that. Lisa is the host of Big Gay Overalls, and she’s just a super cool human. So I’m excited to share her with you because who doesn’t need a little more self acceptance, like I said, when doing the work to live your best damn life? So with that, welcome, Lisa.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Thank you. And I don’t know how I’m gonna live up to that introduction. That’s, I think, the best I’ve ever had. That’s amazing.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
You know I love you so much, and you literally win the award for best podcast cover art. We will definitely put that in the show notes and and be sharing that because I’m just I’m, like, enthralled with with your your your cover art. But we’re not we’re not here to talk about your cover art, but first, I do wanna hear the story behind big gay overalls because that’s not a term I’ve ever heard before, but I think it’s a term that lesbians use if I’m or maybe that’s a Lisa term. Oh, okay.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Lisa’s term, to be honest. It started as a bit of an in joke with my, I guess, business coach. He and his business partner at the time were kind of the first people who I came out to. So they kind of and when I did, they were the first ones. They were kind of like, well, duh, but thanks for coming. We’ve been waiting for you to get here. Surprise. And then we would have some banter on our calls.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And when my wife and I bought the house that we bought, which is in a semi rural area, he would make jokes about 1 big gay farmer now. And, you know, do you have gay overalls you wear when you’re farming? Because I became obsessed with cows. And then when we were talking about, you know, he was talking about the need for me to share my story, and I was like, okay. Cool. And I sat down one day, and I was like, Big Gay Overalls podcast. And I just asked chat GPT to come up with a logo for a podcast called that. And literally, chat GPT gave me the basis of that with the overalls and the microphone and the rainbow behind it. And I was like, that’s it.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Like, that’s it. And then as I dug deeper in it, I thought on it more and I go, okay. We can’t just like, what does it really mean? And overalls are such a powerful analogy for, you know, you put on overalls to go to work, which you have you know, I’ve had to do in this journey, but you also put on overalls when you wanna cover things up and protect. And, you know, so whilst it’s a fun name and logo and and the community group I’ve created. I’ve called it embracing my big gay overalls because we want people to impress

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Which I just joined this week. Excited to dive in.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I know.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I was

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
so excited. But it it it just seems like it was a good metaphor for, you know, doing the work, but also the need at times to to cover yourself and protect yourself. And maybe if you’re not out or, you know, as I it took me a long time to get to that point of coming out, then you’ve kind of, like, got this protective layer on. So I felt like it was perfect. And everyone who’s seen it just loves the name or or raves about, you know, the logo. So I can’t take credit for the creative genius from Absolutely. Either really. I said to Tony, I’ll have to start paying new royalties one day for the name.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
But it’s just that as I thought about the overalls are really, like, a powerful symbol for, you know, change and getting to work or protecting and that sort of thing. So that’s where it came from. And I really love the name, and it sort of and and if we’re talking about it from a podcast perspective, it does stand out. And that’s you know?

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I love that. And what I you know, I’m thinking about I’m thinking back to my years before I started. There’s there’s pre 2015 gen and there’s post 2015 gen. Right? Pre 20 15 gen was very kind of like, I had this shell, it you know, and it was pretty impenetrable. You know, so maybe it was my concrete suit that I had on. But these days, you know, I think of, like, when do I put my proverbial overalls on? And there’s nothing good, bad, right, or wrong about that. Right? It’s okay to be on the other side of of doing this work of self acceptance and still sometimes feel the need for some protection. And I did just recently buy my first pair of adult overalls, and I’m just I love that story so much in that analogy.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
And every time I wear my overalls, I’m gonna think of you, and there’s balloons coming up because I’m using my hands.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. Okay.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I love that. Yes. But, yeah, I’m is that weird to say I’m gonna think of you every time I wear my overalls?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
A little bit. A little bit. We’re probably not as good thinking about maybe not wearing them, but, you know, we’ll take it. But even Sharon has thought, like, we’ve gotta go she said, we’ve really gotta go and

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
buy a

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
pair of Robles. And she said, we can take photos like standing next to cows and that and put a Yeah. Calendar together to send to Tony, my business coach, this year for Christmas. It’s like because it’s just been this running theme and we, like, we were talking I was talking to him yesterday about travelling, and he’s like, so you’re gonna be gay gypsies now? Like, everything he just inserts his everything. And I don’t take offence because I know that he says it with love, but I said, I’m not changing my branding now. And he was just laughing. He goes, no. No.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
You’ll always be a big gay farmer in your big gay overalls. And he’s he has made the comment offhand to some people in the company who may not have known my story and they’re like, why did Tony say to ask you about your big gay overalls? I went, oh my lord. And even our operations manager is like, he can’t he can’t say that. Like, yeah, but he does. Exactly. 12 and he’s his way of helping me own myself as well is like, well, if you’re not gonna talk about it, I’m gonna make you talk about it because I’m gonna need someone to ask you. But it’s just we’re having fun with it, and and it just makes me happy. Like, when I look at you know, I had some shirts done for a pride event, and they just looked super cool with, you know, the front and the back.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Absolutely. I obviously, we are going to get into your story around self acceptance, but you are wearing a shirt that I’m like, I need this shirt. It says 0 fucks. I can’t read because my eyes are old. I can’t read what it says below that. Can you read it upside down?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. It actually says to stop giving a fuck about the opinions and ideas of others. It’s your life. You’re writing the the script. Make it a good one. Like and I could not have worn a more perfect shirt when I was looking for something to wear to come on this today with you, and I pulled it out when This is the one. This is a ginge. Yeah.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Well, my daughter told me I looked like a sailor today, so there’s that.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I’m not the vibe I was getting, but we I think this is an Australian brand, and it started out as a gym wear company. And Sharon got it for big. This was a couple of years ago with this is Yeah. Perfect shirt. Like, sometimes I can

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
use it

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
where I can wear it, and I’m like, perfect, Toni.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Thank you so much. I am honored. So let’s get into that story. You know, I’d I’d love to hear a little bit about your coming out and whatever you’re open to sharing, but really how it led to this journey of self acceptance and the fact that you have someone like Toni who so believes in and supports you and is, like, helping helped draw some of that out of you. So, you know, start where you want to, and we’ll see where it goes from there.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, throughout my entire life, I always felt like I didn’t fit into my life. I didn’t like, I describe myself, and I don’t know if people are familiar with the image and Dexter. And I describe myself like Dexter, but without all the killing people bits. But because I remember watching one episode one day, and he was at a party, and he was talking about how he has to figure out what is it the expected reaction and do that. And I felt like I did that a lot. Oh, I’m at this. I should be happy or I should be smiling.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Like, I remember at my first wedding, I was walking down the aisle going, oh, should I cry right now? Should I this? Like, it was all very 3rd person and I I just felt like I didn’t quite fit in with anything. And then in 2010, I met my catalyst for one of a better term and suddenly everything became clear. That like, oh, that’s why I’ve felt this way about certain things and why, you know, other things have been because all of a sudden, a lot of things I’d struggle with in life, whether it be intimacy or just feeling free went away. And I was like, and I understood. So I grew up in a small country town where, you know, being gay wasn’t a thing. Like, as I grew up, I had nothing but

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
derogatory terms.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
You know? If someone was a woman and unmarried, well, must be a leather or a diaper if you if you didn’t wear dresses or the you didn’t run around with every guy in town, the whole thing. And I got called the gamut of that. And so I was gonna be not the person that they did. And then so, you know, if I did the things, tick the boxes, got married, did the things, the whole you know, you said I couldn’t have this. I’m getting it. And I went and did it. And, you know, it’s not that I didn’t love the person I married my husband at the time. Like, I did, and and I felt like I was genuinely invested in that relationship.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
But then fast forward, and I’m like, oh, that’s why all of it and I’d only had, like, one other serious, like heteronormative relationship prior which was you know a few years prior to that. And I was like now I know why. Yeah. It just didn’t work. And then but when that relationship ended with my catalyst and I was then like, where does this leave me? And I was very stuck because I was like, I can’t give up this other life I’ve built because it’s going to there’s too much uncertainty, like, how will I survive? Like, you know, I built this life and people are gonna hate me and so I did nothing. I just shut everything away. And then, you know, when I met Sharon, I was very, like, compelled because this was something, again, completely different. I was like, I’m compelled to take the big scary steps.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And I knew that she was a 100% invested, so I had that support to then do that. Whereas had I I like, I knew on my, like, my gut’s never wrong. I don’t know why I continually choose not to listen to it and invest it, but I get to I, you know, I knew, like, that relationship, that first was never gonna be the relationship. It was never gonna be the happy ending. I knew that because she wasn’t a 100%. You know, it was very everything her terms. And but when I met Sharon, it’s very different. It was very and I just felt this compulsion, like, I could keep living this way or holy shit.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I could start living this way, and it wasn’t so scary. Like, I don’t know that if I’d not had that support, would I ever have actually Yeah. Made the leap? And because even then when I had so it was at the start of 2021, I moved out of the house. I was in with my husband and said, look. I need to step back and take a break. I’ve been seeing a therapist to figure out some childhood trauma, which really made me confront this is who I am. Thought I was there about some issues, things like this, whole other thing. And then it was, like, 6 months later before I then said to him, listen.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I’m gay. You need you know, you deserve to be happy, and I’m not gonna be the person that’s gonna make you happy. Like, I need to share this with you now. And he was like, okay. Like, there was no never any animosity, yelling, screaming, which I was worried about. Yeah. Of course. My mother lives in that heat.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And I was like, she can’t come live with me. And I need calm status quo, and I was trying to protect everyone. But meanwhile, I was just shoving myself to the side. But then little by little, like, I’d have a random conversation with a friend at the coffee shop and say, so I think I’m gay. And don’t know what that looks like, but here’s the thing. Even though I had a fair idea where I was going. And then one day I’d had the conversation with Tony and Chuck on our call and said oh well this is what’s happening and you know and the really powerful moment was on my call the following week. Before we finished, Chuck says, oh, look.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I need you to say something for me. And I went, yeah. Cool. What? Like, what? And he said, I need you to tell me I’m gay. And I went, yeah. I did last week, mate. Like, we all cried. It was all lovely.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And he goes, no. No. No. You said I think I need you to learn this. And I was like It’s

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
got goosebumps.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Okay. And it was just such a powerful thing. And, like, you know, they rode the rollercoast with me. We were all like, well, no. I haven’t, like, told anyone yet. I’m doing this and but they just held the space for me to work through that. And suddenly a lot of stuff that I was having trouble with. Like, you know, I went to see them for the business I was running as a gym owner because I couldn’t get my staff to do what I wanted to do.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Like, why my staff, you know, dickheads? Like, why is no one doing what I need to do? Turns out it was me. Hi.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
It’s me. I’m a problem. Yeah. Me.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. And, you know There

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I am.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Where I go, there I am. And when I started to embrace who I was, someone a friend sent me a text not long after I’d started coming out, and they’re like, you know, I felt like I love you dearly, and I’ve known you now for 6 or 7 years. But I always felt like you were fighting all the time and you had a chip on your shoulder about something. She said, you don’t have that. Yeah. You are lighter. And all of a sudden, things became easier because I just started to it took me a long time to get to, like, the 0 given state, and I’m still probably sometimes I dip in, sometimes I dip out. But having that, like, this is who I am.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
You either

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
accept me

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
or you don’t. And I went from somebody who was desperate to be included and have a large circle and and have a big group to going, I’m good with my little circle. Like, this is my tribe. And I pulled the people I want to pull close and some people self selected out of that just by their response. And then and situated themselves, I talk about that I have circles. So some people are now in outer circles. And I still love them, but I just Yeah. I don’t engage with them on this stuff.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And that’s cool. And our relationships change, but guess what? I want you to be happy Absolutely. You’re over there. So that process of coming out. And I feel like as a person in the, you know, the rainbow community is like, hey. We have to come out Yeah. Every freaking day in some way. Like, we both went and had a haircut a few weeks ago, and the guy goes, oh, so you’re sisters? No.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
That’s my wife. And it’s just it’s got easier for me to say my wife, my now but you still have some of that internal life. I’m kinda familiar where you’re like, I hold her hand walking down the street. Is it gonna be a thing? So, like, the coming out is is evolving, but I really had to come out to me first. As in, this is who I am, and that’s okay. Better than I can. Mhmm. Yep.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
100%. And it’s giving yourself permission to understand Mhmm. What you deserve. And, you know, I’m fortunate. Like, Sharon is by trade a counselor. So they say that, you know, 2 women together, you’re gonna do a lot of talking. Well, be married to a counselor. You’re gonna do a lot more Tell me how you’re really talking about that.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Well Yeah. But I I love it because no one in life has ever asked me, apart from, like, these business coaches I work with, no one has ever asked me question and then sat and waited for the answer without accepting just the superficial, I’m good. She’s like, instead of checking in and saying, you know, how are you today? She’s like, how’s your heart? I love that. How’s your soul?

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Yeah. How’s your heart? That a lot in our how’s your heart today? I use that a lot a lot with my friends. Yeah.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. Because because there’s you know, you can go, good. I’m fine. And you might superficially feel fine, but you’re really not fine. And for the like, she will trip, not trip me up, but pick me up on times when I’m like, I felt like a shitbag human when that I was gonna destroy everyone’s else’s life and be completely selfish for me. And that is not the way Lisa operated for 46 and a half years of her life. Everything was about keeping other people happy, keeping the peace, keep doing doing the thing, ticking the boxes. So for me to do things based on what would make me happy, which was coming out, leaving the marriage, having a relationship with Sharon was massive.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And I felt like, well, I’m causing everybody else this and I then don’t deserve good things to happen to me. And for a long time and I even talked about it on the podcast one day. It’s like, sometimes I still have that feeling like I’m waiting for this to all be taken away because someone’s gonna go, actually, you are that shitbag human and you don’t deserve these things because you’ve upset everyone else’s apple carts. But it part of the work that I did and through just talking about it not just internalising because you know and I know we Absolutely. Lie to ourselves. Like our brains all the time. And but verbalising it as in, you know, what makes me think I don’t deserve to be happy and what makes them deserve to be happy more than me. And ultimately, I can’t control what happens to their apple carts.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Like, I can just be if I’m authentic and coming from a good place, then, like, I how they receive it and respond to it, I can’t control it. And and in fact, it’s none of my business because they’re gonna filter it through their narratives. And as soon as I kind of got my head around that, I was like, as long as I’m not being an asshole and just deliberately setting out to make someone’s life different and difficult, then it’s like, okay. Well, I’m doing this because this is authentically me. If it doesn’t sit well with you or causes issues, we can either talk about it or you can just block me and unfriend me and move on. And either way, that’s okay. But I’m not gonna dim my light because

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Because you’re uncomfortable or you have your own your own lens that you’re putting on it. And we all do. Right? Yeah.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And they’ve known me, you know, and I have grace for people in my story because they’ve known Lisa 1.0 for 46 and a half years. And now there’s this other version of Lisa, and that can be hard for people to reconcile that, well, I’m still the same person. This is who I always was. I just never let you see it.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
And now you’re feeling safe enough on yourself to show that.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. And, you know, even if you like Lisa 1.0, that’s cool, but that’s where she stops. She’s never gonna evolve or be any different. She’s just gonna be what she is. This one is continually evolving and getting, like, if I look at my journey then through the last, you know, three and a half years of starting being open, I guess, out of the closet is like, you know, I’ve started to go, okay. Well, where do I fit? What what am I comfortable? You know? Even when Sharon and I decide to get married, I was like, you know what? I just wanna wear an outfit where I can wear my favorite boots. And she’s like, cool. Well, let’s get you pants and a shirt.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
If if you’re comfortable, do you wanna wear shorts? I said, oh, not with my boots, but, you know, pants is great. But I just did what was comfortable for me and not what anyone else would expect, and I didn’t even care. I was like, nope. This is what I wanna do. And now it’s like, just what makes Lisa happy and I deserve to feel that. And the free and you’re right. That freedom is you know, Sharon and I talk a lot about the freedom to you know, we’ve we’ve made decisions around, you know, putting boundaries in place around family and stuff, and we’re like, we can just we don’t have to have, like, everyone come down for Christmas. We can just have us in the bubble.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Because guess what? That makes us happy here on our little little house and in the quiet and that we don’t have to feel obligated that everybody has to come to us. And if we don’t wanna go do the things with everybody else, we don’t have to. And that there’s that freedom of going, this is who Lisa is, and I know who we are as a couple and and what our values are. I think probably for the first time in my life, I know what my values are and what I what I treasure. And, you know, I used to in my previous life, you know, I would buy things all the time, shoes and just for that tiny dopamine hit and fill a gap. Whereas now, we live very simply like Yeah.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Yeah. You’re a podcaster. You know?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Amazon. Yeah. Amazon. Thanks for coming. But it’s now we have that freedom as like, well, I don’t need things, but I value time. And, you know, we’ve now curated our life in such a way that we could have a morning that, you know, we might start at 5 AM because the dog wakes up then. And we can have a really slow morning because she doesn’t take her first calls till, like, 11. Right.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
And that’s that’s freedom.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And when we work Right? It is freedom and but it aligns with our values of connection and being present for each other. And, well, I I wouldn’t trade it. You know, when I owned the gym, I was up at 3:45 every morning. I was gone till 10 o’clock. I’d come home and have a sleep, then I’d be out till 7 or 8 o’clock at night. Whereas now, it’s like I’m not anchored to anything, and we get up and I do some early calls and stuff, but then we I have that intentional time together. We have breakfast, we can play with the dog, and we have our morning coffee, and we chat about, you know, what’s coming up for the day. That’s freedom.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And to be able to say that’s what I need, that makes me, you know, happy. And people will say now they’ll see photos of me going, you just look so light now. You’re so

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I get that too all the time. And, again, I’m just you know, our stories are very different, and and our stories are very similar. And the words that you’re using, like, don’t intentionally be the asshole. Like, I’m like, is she in my brain? Because this is exact I feel like we’re doing this brain meld, and I and I love that. One of the things you said that I really loved is what do I treasure? I’ve never heard it put that way, but one of my recent episodes was around creating your unique definition of success. Right? And it is around that concept of what do you value? What do you desire in life? And then set it up around that. Who cares what your aunt Karen thinks you should do? Like, literally, why are you giving your power to aunt Karen? And I I you know, we understand why we do it. Right? But there comes that that point in your life and, you know, you’ve shared your point in your life where, like, I am not willing to continue going down the path I’ve been on.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I had this you know, I had a similar point too, and it’s how how do we get people, closer to those points quicker so that they can, you know, be like, am I choosing this path or this path? Who do I want to be?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And and tell me to Yeah. Consciously. Yes. Because, you know, we we’re doing when we’re doing what makes aunt Karen happy, we’re doing it unconsciously most of the time. Like, we don’t even under but once you have that awareness and, you know, it’s how do you curate and and I think people talk about, you know, creating the life you want, which is great. But for us, it’s been about curating life, being very intentional about this is what we want to include because this is what fills our cup. And, you know, the fact that we’ve got time of our morning, if we decide to go and play PGA Tour, you know, 2025 on the PlayStation for now, then guess what? We’re going to. And we sit, we talk, or we do that.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
There’s there’s no right or wrong. It’s really interesting when I talk to my mother, and, you know, I’ll say, oh, well, we’re going here for the afternoon, or we’re doing this, or I just woke up from a nap because all bloody good life you have because Yeah. People have this perception. If you’re not Yep. Producing. Hustling and and then you’re lazy and and I had to reframe a lot of those stories and understand that we can have because we live quite simply, and my wife decided, you know, we lost her mom at the start of the year, and she was in this job that was very stressful, paid very well, but she’s like, I wanna go back to private practice, back to counseling. That’s what I love to do. I said, okay.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Make it happen.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
We’ll make it work. And we even looked yesterday going, you know, at her income drop since starting, and we’re like, well, when you think about it, it’s like $500 a week. What is that worth for the lifestyle and the time we have now? And to see her come out of her office even after 4 hours of calls, like, energized and fulfilled about doing what her true calling is rather than in management meetings and performance reviewing staff, that

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
is riskless.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Like, shut up and take my money. It’s you know, there’s there’s like, when you but when people are consumed by things and status and following the norms of convention, then they don’t see those potential, those opportunities, so they can’t intentionally curate going, well, if this is important enough to me, how do I make it work? And when you have that freedom of from expectations and what society says you should do and start to realize there are no shoulds, there are get tos or, you know, what I choose to

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Yeah.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Make decision making is so much easier about if if I wanna do this, does this work

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
with him?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Drama Yes. Out of

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
and and I don’t do drama. I don’t do chaos. I I’m like you. I keep my life very chaos and drama free, And that was just one more layer unlocked in that of just, how do I make these decisions as easy as possible? And it frees up. What I didn’t realize is, like, the mental energy I would expend living my life in a way that didn’t align with who I wanted to be, what I valued, etcetera, the mental exhaustion that comes with that. And then once you choose a different way, and again, intentionally choose, all of a sudden it’s like, I’m not exhausted by my life anymore. I have I have time to actually think about and do the things more of the things that I love to do. Right? And and I think that’s what you’re what you’re saying.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And and the way and the things that fill your cup. Like, if we wanna go out in the backyard at 3 o’clock in the afternoon and start the fire pit and sit around watering the boundaries, then okay. Let’s let’s go do that. Or in the middle of the day, if she decides to whip up a batch of biscuits because cooking is one of her love languages, it’s like she’s got time to just do that, not go, oh, well, I I should be at my desk at

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
all. Or feeling resentful that you can’t spend the time doing that. Right? And then that resentment carries over into the relationship and everything else.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Mhmm. And and all of your relationships, we will joke. We’ll have to watch other people. Oh, of course.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Of course.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
We have, you know, see, but we don’t have to be involved in it. We can sit back and just, oh, thank god we live up here and, you know, so many times I’ve said to her lately, like, I’m so grateful for the life we are creating. And I’ve really had that awareness probably in the last 6 months. Like, we’re actively creating what we want it to be. Like, we don’t like, yes, we’ve got some obligations in regard to my mom and her health and stuff like that, but, you know, we’re thinking about making a move to another town to be close to the other family. And yesterday, mom was like, well, what will happen to me? I said, well, you’re coming. You don’t have a choice. You’re coming with us.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
So, like, but I don’t care. I don’t care. I’m going it’ll be 10 hours away. You’re coming. Like, I can’t leave you here. That’s not appropriate now with, you know, my ex husband. I said that’s you’re here by the grace of god. Like, it’s no.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And then it will I set that very clear boundary, and it was like, it’s the first time I’ve ever ever actually said to her, like Yeah. Oh, well, this is what’s happening. Because that has to because if we do decide to do this, then it’s because it’s important to us. And we can’t put our lives on hold for another 5 or 10 years, however long it takes for her things to run their course and then go, oh, well, now we’re too old to do the things. Like, we can do 2 of the things that align with our values is take care of family by being closer to her godmother and then also taking mum 2 for the price of 1 in one location, like and that aligns with our values. And we can both work wherever we want if she’s got a phone line and I’ve got Internet.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Well, what I love about that because I I’m huge on permission too and and that you are the only one who can give yourself permission, and we we tend to not even realize that we can do that. Right? Until something until, again, like, that juncture happens of, like, oh, I have a choice to make here. Oh, what do I actually want? Right? But it’s that you know, for folks listening in, it’s where are you potentially not giving yourself permission? Because here’s the thing, we limit ourselves. We yes. There’s systemic issues. Like, I’m not we’re not gonna gloss over that. There is so much in the world and that’s what I call the fuckery. There is so much outside of our control, and, also, we have so much more control than we think we do.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Right? So it’s finding that balance of, well, where do I have control? What is outside of my control and how do I make the best of of what I have to intentionally create this life that I love to live?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Mhmm. And it’s also about and, like, we often look to someone else to give us permission, but it’s even we’ve lost the ability. Like, you talk to a 3 or a 4 year old or a toddler, you know, they dream big. And, you know, this is the work I’ve done, like, professionally with the people I coach is, like, we’ve lost the ability to dream big, and we get scared that someone will laugh at us or prejudge our our idea. So we filter it, first of all. And but when we understand that even with all the fuckery in the world and there’s systemic things and all that, there’s always something that you can do that’s gonna even move you 1 millimeter forward towards where you wanna be. No. Like, it doesn’t matter what it is you wanted to do.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
If you decide tomorrow you wanna climb Mount Everest, then start walking to the end of your driveway and walk back. Like, there is always something you can do that is gonna move you forward, And doesn’t matter how tiny, and that gives even that small step gives you such a feeling of control. Suddenly, it’s like a rock rolling down. You pick up that momentum, and you it starts being a self fulfilling prophecy. It’s like, oh, I did that little thing. What’s the next thing?

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Can I do?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
But we keep looking for an adultier adult to solve our and and there’s so much energy wasted on blame. Like, is it like I know and, you know, I don’t wanna dismiss anyone’s journeys and anyone’s stuff, but there are a lot of people who get stuck in that space of this happened to me and that’s why I am what I am. Well, you know, we all had very new era of fuckery growing up. And and so we can either let it, you know, continue to define us or we can go, yes. That happened to me, and I acknowledge it. But it’s not who I am. It’s what happened to me. So now I get to define, do I wanna be living like that, or do I wanna be different to create distance from that thing? So it’s just a thing that happened to me.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
It’s like stepping in a puddle. It happened, but it doesn’t have to ruin my whole day.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Or, you know, impact your whole entire life as as Correct. It is absolutely a choice.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And we keep saying the word today intentional, but it is about, you know, the art of self acceptance as I’m learning is it’s not automatic. It’s manual. It’s a manual process that you have to keep having checks and balances in your brain all the time to pull yourself up or have, you know, someone amazing like you as a coach externally or, you know, a partner or a therapist or a counselor who can sit outside the fire. It could go, hey. You’re doing that thing again. Why are you doing that thing again? And then you’re like, oh. Right. Right.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
It’s such a habit. You know? And our brains get stuck in the ruts, and we have to create new ruts. And it and it absolutely takes time and practice. And that’s what I, you know, I’ll tell clients. I you know? And I don’t know if you hear this with your clients, but breaking it down into, like, what is the simplest, smallest next action you can take? And, oh, that’s that sounds too easy. That sounds too basic. And I’m like but, lovingly, how is your way of thinking it has to be big and grandiose? How is that working for you? And then it’s like the, oh, shit. It’s fun.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
I’m like, like, I I don’t wanna be right here, but

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
but But. Yeah. And what is the next most powerful thing? And as humans, we love to overcomplicate. So I coach people who are in their own businesses. And when everything’s going really well, and I did it, you will break something just so you can feel like you’re purposeful in fixing it and and creating something or that you’ve got something to do or whatever. And then and overcomplicating it because if it’s easy, it can’t be right. Because how many times in life do we hear, oh, well, it’s too easy. You must have Right.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Right. Cheated or whatever. And you don’t and then it comes to that story. You don’t deserve it. Like, I didn’t Earn. Earn. Yeah. Well, everything doesn’t have to be hard, and it can be the simplest things that are most powerful.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
You know, I’ve been digging into a lot lately, essentialism, because I I

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
actually have that book on hold at the library. It’s waiting for me. Okay. I’m gonna go I live at, like, a half a block from the library. I’m gonna go get that tomorrow.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
But we’ve we are talking about it with you know, we talk about it with our clients, and it’s about, like, what it can you do, like, less of, but that gives more impact. And, you know, doing way more if you’re getting rid of distraction and noises. And even something as simple as turning the pings off your phone, it’s suddenly, it’s quite it’s hard at first because then you’re like, you’re addicted to those little tiny big bing Yeah. Don’t be mean. To. Once you get out of that, then you’re like, oh, my brain is more creative and it’s freer and, you know, that concept of, like, what is the next most important thing? And I think as you we’re not taught that, like, at school, like, here’s the system, here’s the process, here’s the rules, what we follow, and that’s what we thought. You know, you go to school, you go to college, you get a job, you get married, you have kids. This is the system.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Well, but what’s the next thing that’s important for me? Maybe it’s not having 2.5 kids in a white picket fence. Maybe the next most important thing for you is, you know, traveling or maybe it’s something even smaller as in every day, I’m gonna have half an hour to read.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
So I’d love to hear, for someone listening in, who who’s who’s picking up what we’re putting down and is like, where do I even start? I’d love to talk about that a little bit. What looking back on your own path through this, what do you wish you would have known when you started out on this grand adventure of becoming Lisa 2.0 and beyond?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And beyond. I think, you know, for me, knowing that it was way it’s way better on the other side. So, you know, I was looking at this wall and all I could see was chaos and drama and hurt and all of this stuff. But when you get through the other side, which is why, you know, I was encouraged to start telling my story because I’m like, somebody who’s in that messy middle bit Yeah. Needs to hear that it’s worth it. The struggle is 100% worth it. And we need more voices, you know, telling that story that it doesn’t matter what your situation is, whether you’re in, you know, a trauma based relationship or, you know, you’ve got family issues or it doesn’t have to be around your orientation and identity, but, you know, it could be just a job that sucks. But identifying that, you know, discomfort precedes action when the when the fear of the staying the same is greater, the the fear of, yeah, staying the same is greater than the fear of change.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
That’s when you’ll make that change. And, you know, understanding that if you’ve got, like I’m not the first person to have done this, but I didn’t see a lot of story. You know? I’m not a spoiler alert. But I Yeah. I didn’t see a lot of these stories to let me know that it was okay, that you don’t have to struggle. Like, just because you like, I see a lot of posts from, you know, women who particularly come out later in life or they’re thinking about coming out or they’re struggling with identity, and they get attached to the struggle. Like, I’m not gonna be happy. I’m gonna be sad.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I’m gonna be single. I’m gonna be alone. Like, it doesn’t have to be that. You can have a happy ending, but you and like you said, when I was listening to your podcast and creating your definition of success, you can create what happiness is to you, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be tied to having the partner, you know, the the Yeah. White picket fence or any of those sort of things. It can be about, hey. I can rock down the street, and I know that I’m perfectly authentic as I am and be and good with that. And that, like, I can’t tell people what that sense of freedom’s like.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
That

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
is worth it. Yeah. And that’s exactly what I talk about. Oh, sorry. I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. No. No. When when I look back on my previous life, and it’s funny, like, when I go back to the old house I used to have and the environment there, I was like, oh my god. Like, I was not living. I was just existing. But finding someone that you can that can guide you on the journey even if it’s not whether it be a Yeah. A coach or a therapist that can sit external to you and help you filter the noise in your head.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And also that you, like, understand that it can be amazing and worth it. But you’ll only know that when you do that first little step. Just the first little thing. So

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
No. No. I love that.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And, like, yeah, for me

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
You know, I If

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I knew it was, I would have done it

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
way off. Absolutely.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And there was

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
You know, I never sugarcoat the amount of work that it took me to be who I am today. I never sugarcoat it. You know, and people that come into my world now, they see the shiny, vibrant, pink haired 54 year old Jen rocking the glasses and ripped jeans and, you know, full of confidence, and and I am those things. What they don’t know are the 45 years of heartbreaking loneliness and emptiness and that I fought tooth and nail I almost get emotional. I fought tooth and nail, you know, starting in 2015 at the age of 45 to become this person. Right? And I will be the I will shout it from the mountain tops. Those 8 or 9 years were so worth it. I would not undo anything that I went through, but I had support.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Right? I had my husband Yep. By my side believing in me when I loving me when I hated myself, believing in me when I, you know, didn’t believe in myself, and just holding on to hope and possibility that what’s on the other side is gonna be worth it, that’s what got me through.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And it’s just even sometimes, you know, someone’s I remember a quote that I had many years ago. I was like, don’t wait for the light to appear at the end of the tunnel. Walk down there and light that thing in yourself. And it’s 100% true is, like, you again, comes back to choice and control. Like, I’m gonna choose to be my own light. And I remember in 2012, like, I was at rock bottom this, you know, catalyst relationship had ended. I was living in a different city. I was by myself.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I like and I saw a thing that came up on Facebook, said be your own hero. And that has always stuck with me. It’s like, no one is coming to save you. We’ve got to, you know, start digging ourselves out and creating our own light. And, again, giving ourselves permission to do that, but you really need that circle. Like, I’m grateful the last three and a half years for the circle. I’ve had of people who didn’t judge me, who are like either, well, duh, or cool. That’s amazing.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Are you okay? Are you safe? Are you this? And it’s helped me really see people for who they are and make some of those decisions about, you know, who’s in my life. And under and then by having people sit externally who will ask a question and then hold the space for an answer and then go, nope. That’s bullshit.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Try it again. Do over.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And be honest with you, because they love you and whether it’s a professional relationship or not, it’s coming from that place of, you know, if if I worked with you, I know that you’re having that hard conversation with me because you want me to be my best self, and you’d be doing me a disservice by not having that hard conversation.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Absolutely. So with that Yeah. This is the first time I’m I’m holding this with, my dog in the room, so I need to go let her out. Hold on one second. This is this is embarrassing.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
No. We do love the dogs.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
But her toenails are being super loud. Oh my gosh. Of course, I will edit all this out.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
That’s alright. Mine is asleep outside the office door because Sharon’s at work, and I’m in here with and we both got our doors shut. So she’s like I heard her just, slide down the door, and I can hear the Darth Vader breathing. And she’s like, is she in here?

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Yeah. So is that there have been so many nuggets that have been that you’ve shared with us. And I I encourage anyone, again, whether you identify as a queer, you know, queer, lesbian, like anything, this, your message of self acceptance and self love, I think, is is so relatable, and I just encourage people to to listen to you. Read your book when it comes out. Right? I’m gonna help you get that out into the world at some point, at least I offered. Offered. But with that, I wanna know what are you most looking forward to when you look to the near future? What is possible for Lisa?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yeah. Well, anything. That’s the thing. And that’s what’s exciting is, you know, when I was talking to my coach yesterday, I was like, well, I don’t really know what big gay overalls, you know, and I’m always the person goes, well, what’s the end game? Like, what are are working towards? And but with Big Game Overalls, I’ve just been letting it do its thing. Like, I didn’t launch it. Like, it was very soft. I just recorded and then just created some social media platforms and just let it do its thing. And that the right people would would find it.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And I’m still doing that. Like, I’m not it’s not a vehicle for me to harvest clients to work with or to flog programs and we

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Oh, I know. Me too.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Me too. In some which is like but it’s about sharing other people’s stories and understanding that, you know, your story is powerful. It’s different to mine, but like you’ve said about our stories, they’re different, but they’re the same. And that there’s someone who will get something from me that they didn’t get from you and vice versa. And I think for me is the most exciting but yet terrifying thing for me is really putting my face to it and my and owning fully the story. So, like, through writing my book, which I’ve been powering through now. Because it’s funny, I sat down a year ago and tried to write, and it was, like because I was filtering so much stuff. But now, because I’m authentic, it’s just

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
flowing kinda. You’re coming out. Do you see what I did there?

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Getting that out there. I know. I like that bookish. But it’s, like, how many people can I reach and positively impact through me just being me and and sharing what goes through my head each week or by someone who wants to come on the podcast and talk about their story or someone who invites me on theirs, you know, so I can give a different perspective on whatever that someone’s gonna hear and go, oh? Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And if she did it, then I can too. And I think I don’t have any clear end goals, but what I guess I’m most looking forward to, and as I said, most terrifies me is, like, what is the impact of good that I can leave? Like, what’s Lisa’s footprint at the end of the day?

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
It’s huge. Big gay overalls. Big gay overalls. And all their delicious overall glory.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And I was thinking about that with my book. I was like, oh, maybe the front cover can be the overalls and the back is the back of the overalls and, you know

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
You’re having fun with it. So I wanna be your friend for life. I just think the world of you. And, you know, what I what I love so much about you, Lisa, is that you didn’t ask me for this, but what I love so much about you is that you are a very real human being. You’re not trying to be perfect. You’re not trying to be a guru. You’re not trying to be something other than who you authentically are, and that’s what shows. Right? When I watch your TikToks, when I when I see you on threads, to me, it’s just you’re such a shining example of owning who you are in all in all ways.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Right? And that helps others give themselves the permission they need to do to do the same. And I wanna leave us with, imagine a world full of people who are doing that and the amazing world we could have. And that’s what I love about both of us and the others that we know and are having on our shows is that we are helping shape the world in the way we wanna see it. Right? And it’s a big, big job, but we’re made for this. That’s what I believe.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Yep. I a 100% agree, and I thank you for the kind words. And we will be we would become fast friends, but we will be firm friends for a long time. And I think that we need more voices being authentic and and sharing stories, and it’s okay to fuck up. It’s okay to to flounder. It’s okay. And I don’t say the other f word of fail, but it’s okay to figure it out as you go. And if you, you know, share it, well, someone else is gonna their path is gonna be a little bit easier.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I’ve always been someone who has considered that I’m here to be of service to people. And so if me being uncomfortable and sharing my vulnerabilities is gonna help someone else maybe have a slightly smoother path, then Yeah. Guess what? I could die tomorrow and go

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Again, you’re in my brain. Like, I am so charmingly awkward, and I’m like, I love that about myself because I will just say the thing that we’re all thinking. And, like, the conversations, like, and ahas that come out of it, I’m like, I don’t mind being the awkward one who, you know, says it.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Says it. And that’s where Barron’s power is. She will say things that I’m, you know, will not like, we did a TikTok the other day where I was like, what are the top five things about being a late life lesbian? And she goes, I’ve got one. And then she said, come out the other fool me and choose

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
a new sausage. So fucking hilarious. I will re I rewatch that. It’s so funny. And I’ll I’ll put it in the show notes.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
I’ll make sure that Yeah. Because I legit I could not have done that because it just would’ve looked weird and awkward if I did it, But she just has this natural way of going Yeah. Yeah. This is the only sausage I need to worry.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Through the year.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Just took a bite of this bun. Yeah. And I just laughed. I mean, but I could not do that. But you know what? Other people have the and so now I’ve got I can show us both being authentic, and she does the things that I can’t do. And it’s not like, oh, what’s the formula for getting I don’t care if nobody follows me. If one person does and they learn something

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
Yeah. I love it. We were gonna end on that. I can’t thank you enough for taking the time. You’re on the opposite end of the world than me. I don’t even know what time it is.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
Busy. It’s like 9:30 in the morning.

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
So worked a full day before this, and and we’re gonna let you go. We will have all of your information, including the link to that amazing video of your wife eating her wiener. And I just I I think the world of you, and just thanks for being you. And thanks for doing the work that that you’ve done on yourself so that you can now help others do the same. Right? You’re not there to fix them. You’re there to help show a different way of being and, again, help others give themselves permission. So thank you so much.

Lisa Kirkman Big Gay Overalls:
And thank you for being you, and thank you for having me. It’s been Yeah. This is our 2nd chat that’s been

Jen V. Your BEST Damn Life Coach & Consultant:
waiting. Bye, Lisa.

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